Is the Art of Argument Required for Classical Conversations Challenge

Find out why my family left Classical Conversations, including the bug we experienced with the curriculum, expectations, and corporate.

Before I get in to why my family unit left Classical Conversations, I'd like to start from the kickoff, with why nosotros joined in the first place.

If you aren't aware of Classical Conversations (which I'll refer to as CC), they are an educational grouping for homeschoolers.  According to their website, they have 117,000 students enrolled in CC, so it's a huge, worldwide corporation.

After attending an informational coming together and practicum, we joined CC in 2015, and we were part of CC communities for iv years.

Every bit a first time homeschooling mom, who grew upwards in public school, I was definitely nervous most how to homeschool, and how to know if I was doing it "right."  Because of this, CC sounded like a God send to me.

• A community for my kids, so they wouldn't feel like they were the only homeschoolers in the earth.
• A curriculum that helped "Know God and make Him known."
• Someone else doing art and science with my kids, then the mess didn't have to happen in my house.

The closest community was about 45 miles away, but we were willing to drive that far each week, for 24 weeks, in club to make it happen.

That first year I had mixed feelings.  I adored our community– they were incredible people, and I still experience fondly for them, so I promise that none of them experience offended if they read this post.  If they hadn't been as amazing equally they were, we probably would have left much earlier, one time I started to accept doubts.

So what kind of doubts did I have?  I would broadly allocate them as bug with expectations, bug with the curriculum, lack of God in the curriculum, and problems with corporate.

For some reason, most of the negative comments I've gotten about this post are in regards to the fact that I wanted to outsource a pocket-size amount of our homeschool, and therefore I'm "lazy, and might likewise send my kids to public school."  I have no problem with you leaving your comments that say you think I'm wrong, merely information technology's not wrong to outsource some of your child's education.  It's why music teachers, sports coaches, and tutors of all kinds exist.  If I put my kids in ballet lessons, it doesn't hateful I should just put them in public school.  That's a silly argument, with no logic.  So if you feel offended past this commodity, at to the lowest degree practise me the favor of reading the entire article, and attacking my arguments, instead of attacking me.  Thanks!

Bug with Expectations

One of the first things that I struggled with was what was expected of me, equally the mom.  We had just dished out what felt like an atrocious lot of money to me ($820 for our two kids' tuition, plus most $100 for the Foundations Guide).  And then, at our first customs day, we were all told we needed to volunteer for something.  I had been willing to pay that much money to take less on my plate, not more than, and so that really bewitched me.  If information technology were a co-op, I would completely understand that, simply then, co-ops don't cost nearly a m for 2 kids.

I also learned that the teachers were really called tutors, because it wasn't their job to teach my kids at all.  Their job was to teach ME how to teach my kids.  That wasn't at all what I had expected. I already knew how to teach my kids, and I didn't demand a form to teach ME to teach my kids.

Add to that the fact that in our 4 years of beingness in CC, I was typically the only mom (or one of two moms) in the classroom, with a agglomeration of other people'due south kids, and information technology just didn't seem to make sense.  If the goal was truly to teach the parents, shouldn't all kids in a family be grouped together, and then the mom could be nowadays with her kids?

Instead, I was not only the i existence "taught" by the tutor, I was also helping herd other people'southward kids to bathroom breaks, helping other people'due south kids do art and science projects, and helping bargain with classroom direction.  Information technology was and so non what I thought I had signed up for.

I had purposely avoided an actual co-op, because I was in a place in my life where I just needed to outsource a small corporeality of our homeschooling, and have less stress.  Instead, I had paid far more than I would have for a co-op (in my expanse co-ops are typically just the cost of supplies), but I was still stuck with responsibilities of a co-op.

I also felt similar Classical Conversations had been erroneously sold to me as a "stick in the sand" curriculum (this is literally a phrase they use to sell the curriculum).  I was told that the Simply thing I needed to buy was the Foundations Guide.  So it turned out that in addition to the Foundations Guide, I likewise needed a tin whistle for each kid (CC charges $11 per tin can whistle).  We also needed to purchase the cd, and then the kids would exist able to practice the songs that they learned during community day (and in that location is a different prepare of cds for each cycle, and each set costs $35).  And so I found out that really, you should also buy the timeline cards (another $100) and the memory work flash cards (another $30 per bike).

It's not that I had a problem with the things needed, but more than with the fact that it was presented as ALL you need is the guide, when in reality, that's not all y'all need.  Information technology ends up being so far from stick in the sand that information technology's ridiculous to even keep saying that line.

(And in instance you're not post-obit the math on this, nosotros're now at $1100 for our first year in CC.)

Problems with the Curriculum

That commencement yr was eye opening for me.  We loved the history sentences the kids learned each calendar week.  My kids adored the timeline song.  And I'one thousand not going to lie: it was kind of overnice when people asked what the kids had been learning (as some people dearest to do to homeschoolers), and one of the kids rattled off the history of the founding of Islam, or a listing of prepositions, or something like that.

Still, I was quickly underwhelmed by the fine art and science.  Let's start with the art.  Art is divided into iv groups of vi weeks each.  6 weeks of fine arts, 6 weeks of tin whistle, 6 weeks of famous artists, and 6 weeks of orchestra & composers.

The kids enjoyed some of it, only the new edition changed the orchestra and composers section terribly.  For 6 weeks, the kids were supposed to mind to the same 3 songs over and over.  Each week, those aforementioned 3 songs.  And CC instructed tutors to have them merely listen.  No coloring, no interim out the music, just sit and mind.  My kids could (and do) sit and listen to classical music at home, and it costs united states nothing.  It felt similar a waste of community time.

The fine arts tended to be a lot of drawing pictures with crayons or colored pencils.  Not a bad thing, simply in one case once more, something that wasn't worth my paying someone else to oversee.

As far as the science goes, it was just awful (and it got worse with the newest revision of the Foundations Guide).  There were something like 4 weeks in Cycle 1 where the kids spent the entire science time looking at rocks.  Now I am fascinated by geology, but 4 weeks in a row of looking at rocks with a magnifying glass was only too much.

In Cycle 3, there are 6 weeks of probability.  First off, I wouldn't consider that science (though I know it is used in science), but rather math.  Second, the kids were over again And then bored with rolling dice and recording how many times nosotros got each number, or flipping coins and recording how many tails and heads.  Introducing probability is not bad, simply vi weeks of it in a row is overkill.

Science can exist so exciting and interesting, but CC actually doesn't do it justice.  At that place were many weeks that the science "experiment" took less than 5 minutes, and all of the moms were looking at each other saying, "That's information technology?"

Strangely enough, while art and science were one of the greatest reasons I joined CC, they were really the smallest office of the curriculum I had issue with.

I was told that CC was "a complete curriculum," but that I might want to add a math and reading curriculum to information technology.  It turned out that CC wasn't much of a curriculum at all, in my opinion.  Sure, the kids memorized a few sentences nearly Emperor Constantine (for example), but that was it.  They knew goose egg more about each subject than a simple memorized paragraph.  They memorized cloud types, but never actually knew what those cloud types looked similar.

By claiming it's a complete curriculum, and existence constantly told to "trust the process," nosotros weren't being encouraged to let our kids dig deep into the subjects and really Learn about them!

I would go and get books that went forth with what we learned, and my kids and I would dig deeper, but that'due south discouraged by CC.

I also struggled with why certain things were included in the data my kids would learn, while other things were skipped.  Why did my kids need to know the commutative law for addition and multiplication, just not the gild of operations?  Order of operations seems to be used much more than ofttimes, and would be a handy thing to know, but that's not in there at all.

fifth Edition Foundations Guide

When the fifth edition Foundations Guide came out, and we had to re-purchase a guide that I had been told would be the but affair we needed to buy, which had already been proven false, I was annoyed, simply hopeful that peradventure the new guides would be a little meliorate than the 4th edition.

When nosotros received our 5th edition guide, and I saw that there were flaws and mess ups throughout the book, I figured that like any practiced curriculum visitor, Classical Conversations would effort to make it correct (print out the incorrect pages and send them to the customers, or at the least send an errata sheet to each customer so they could fix the errors).  But they didn't.

In fact, despite the fact that these issues were brought to their attention, they never sent out any type of communication to allow people know what the correct information was. I had to dig pretty deep, and spend many hours to finally discover an errata for the guide.

Instead of CC owning upwards to the mistakes, moms like me had to embarrass the tutors by correcting them when they were attempting to teach the kids (ahem, I meant while they were teaching us moms) the information.  While I didn't want to have to right the tutor in front of the kids, I as well wasn't willing to allow her teach incorrect data.

Not only did CC not inform the purchasers of the Foundations Guide that at that place were mistakes, they went even further to pretend that one of the geography mistakes was on purpose, and recommended that if y'all'd like to "dig deeper" you tin can purchase their cartography volume (which is likewise riddled with mistakes).

Instead of owning up to the mistakes they had made, CC fabricated those who questioned the mistakes look like they were in the wrong for questioning and not being willing to "dig deep," implying that they maybe weren't up to the challenge of CC.

This is their words in regards to the fact that one of the places the kids were supposed to learn wasn't fifty-fifty included on the maps: " To inspire families to dig a little deeper, they can recall of it as excavating treasure every bit they enquiry or discuss ancient locations or compare locations to modern-day names or locations. Since ancient locations are the focus in this cycle, not all locations are shown on the Foundations maps ."

Information technology's definitely true that not all locations need to exist shown on the maps.  Yet, it stands to reason that the locations that the kids are supposed to be memorizing ought to exist on the maps.  It wasn't inspiring to me that they couldn't own up to their mistakes, when they expect perfection from children, with their Memory Masters programme.

Where's God in all this?

Near of all, I struggled with the fact that a curriculum company whose tagline is "To know God and to make Him known" had so little about God in the curriculum.  My kids memorized history sentences about Greek and Roman gods, Islam, Taoism, Hinduism, Buddhism, and more, just not a unmarried sentence nigh Jesus Christ.

The timeline includes Jesus, several missionaries, and some early on church information, and there are a couple of verses memorized in cycle one and cycle 3, but other than that, and the fact that they write "God" in the middle of the board each week, there was very little God in CC'due south Foundations curriculum.

This was one of the biggest things that bummed me out.  I experience that it's a missed opportunity.  While I don't mind my kids beingness exposed to, and understanding, what other religions are nigh, the number one god I want them to learn well-nigh is the One Truthful God, and CC really misses the boat on that.  (Information technology's possible that it'due south better in the Challenge program, only I really tin can't speak to that, since I have no experience with that.)

Problems with Corporate: Shady concern practices

Through all the balance of this, I pushed the nagging, "something isn't quite right" issues out of listen, and tried to focus on the positives.  Fortunately for me, the person who brought the errata sheet to my attention as well invited me to join a Facebook group where I learned more than about Classical Conversations that went across the mistakes and poor curriculum.

I had never really given thought to the fact that CC is in fact a for-profit business organisation.  They really market themselves every bit a ministry.  This isn't just a "feeling" I got– I was actually emailed many times from CC corporate, virtually volunteering for this "ministry."  That seems like an odd choice of diction for a multi-1000000 dollar, for-turn a profit corporation.

Maybe it doesn't seem similar a big deal to you that CC is a corporation, only information technology is definitely a big deal in how they are running their communities.

Commencement, the majority of communities meet in churches.  While CC will tell you that they aren't really the ones placing communities in churches (which is truthful; nevertheless, the tutoring programs CC licenses are for-turn a profit), I have been told that they encourage communities to meet in churches. Churches are non-profit and, therefore, don't take to pay property taxes.  However, if a church decides to start allowing a for-turn a profit entity to operate within the church, they could stop up losing their property tax exemption and accept to pay property taxes.

Think about it this way: if Starbucks suddenly decided to showtime operating out of "churches" in social club to skip paying property taxes, it would exist obvious that the building isn't actually being operated every bit a not-profit church.  CC is doing the same thing, just it's less likely to be spotted due to the fact that they portray themselves as a ministry, "merely a group of homeschool moms," along with the fact that often educational institutes are non-profit, so we only assume that's the instance.

Classical Conversations directors also may be misclassifying their employees.  Tutors are hired as independent contractors, yet often treated equally employees.  In most cases, it is obvious that tutors are hired incorrectly- they should be employees (I'm no revenue enhancement proficient, just here'southward the opinion of someone who is).  This is how CC tells directors to hire the tutors, which then makes the brunt of liability autumn on those directors.

The hiring setup has been inverse in California (one state that is really cracking down on this), which shows that CC Corporate is aware of the problem, but that they're willing to skirt the law in areas where it's not being croaky downwards on.  It was implied by corporate that the fine wasn't enough in other states to get in worth beingness aligned with the police force.

CC also encourages volunteers.  Every summer, highschoolers are encouraged to sign up to volunteer for Practicum.  They are told that they can utilise these hours as volunteer hours for scholarship applications and other purposes.  In lite of the fact that CC is a multi-million dollar corporation, they cannot legally use volunteers.

Can you lot imagine Wal-Mart trying to recruit volunteers?  For-profit businesses tin can offer unpaid internships, but there are really strict guidelines on that, and CC Practicum volunteers wouldn't fall nether those guidelines, due to the fact that CC does proceeds something from the apply of highschoolers (Practicum is a huge money maker for CC) and the highschool students are definitely displacing a paid worker that would be required if there weren't enough volunteers.

I wish that these were the only shady business practices the Classical Conversations was participating in, merely this is simply the tip of the iceberg.  There are so many other issues that come up from corporate down to the local level due to the hierarchy of the program.

Final Thoughts on Classical Conversations

While I admittedly loved the people in the two Classical Conversations communities my family participated in, we are leaving knowing that we already stayed too long. I cannot go on to support CC, knowing what I do at present.

My hope is that in reading this, other families will see that CC is a corporation that is not operating in a godly way, while claiming the name of God, and will find out that they could do so much amend with their money & fourth dimension, than bring together a CC community.

Looking for more than homeschooling posts?   Bank check these out!

four Reasons We Don't Homeschool

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Homeschool Crafts are Great for the Brain

Why Older Kids Still Need Read Alouds

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